Publications received - what do they say about Greenwich??

So - what has turned up in the post??

Subterranea
This excellent journal is now turning up more regularly with articles and features about undergroundia worldwide. Greenwich??
  ---  Crossrail Overview - some very sparse details of current tunnelling plans including Plumstead-North Woolwich
  ---  An article on the delays in refurbishing our two foot tunnels. This is taken from News Shopper and so doesn't need requoting here.
  --- 

Redriff Chronicle
We have had three issues of this in the post. So - some of the highlights -

Spring 2012
An obituary to Peter Gurnett - who came to speak to us on several occasions. He was an expert on the history of Stone's (of Deptford and later Charlton).  He had a distinguished career in Deptford's local history and it is important to note his passing.
Other articles include one on successive Rotherhithe Libraries (plus statue of Tommy Steele).  A report of a talk on Firefighting in Bermondsey. A report of a Great War dug out under London Bridge Station and the planned use of railway networks and communications systems during the war (this is fascinating)

Autumn 2011
A report of a visit to the Limehouse Accumulator Tower (sorry, wrong side of the river - but very interesting). 
An article about the Caryatides of Rotherhithe - I can just about remember seeing these ladies holding up a wall in Rotherhithe in the 1960s - always wondered about them - and then in 1980something I cut through the Heygate Estate at the Elephant, and there they were. Anyway, the Heygate is also now gone and the ladies are apparently back in Rotherhithe. Must go and see them!

Autumn 2012
An article about a 17th century Rotherhithe engineer - Thomas Steers. He built some important docks in - er - Liverpool.
Bittersweet - the story of Hartley's Jam. The Jam Factory just off Tower Bridge Road is now posh flats.  The article doesn't shirk from the labour conditions prevailing in the vast sweet and pickle business of east and south east London - where women, whose dockworker husbands depended on the daily 'call in' system, would take any seasonal work at low wages.

and much else.   Their programme of talks for early 2013 is

30th January    The Bermondsey By Election - the 30th Anniversary. with Simon Hughes and Peter Tachell.  (special admission arrangments - need to do it through their web site - assume they don't want the ghost of Bob Mellish turning up)
27th February   Subterranean Railway. 130 years of the London Underground.  Christian Wolmar
24th April    Ships and the Sea in Bermondsey and Rotherhithe. Stephen Humphery
These are at Time and Talents Old Mortuary in Rotherhithe Street. 7.30


Dockyards  - this is the newsletter of the Naval Dockyards Society.  Articles include
Bermuda. .. a Major Royal Naval Dockyard.   This long and important article takes up the majority of the space.
Malta Update

But - most excitingly - they are advertising for 20th April a Conference on Five Hundred Years of Deptford and Woolwich Royal Dockyards.   This follows their AGM at the National Maritime Museum and booking is absolutely essential.  The event is to be opened by Joan Ruddock, MP.
The speaker list is made up of people many of whom will be very very familiar to GIHS members - in fact some of them ARE GIHS members (and they can rest assured they will be asked to do a reprise for one of our meetings).  The speakers are:

Peter Cross-Rudkin on John Rennie and the Naval Dockyards 1806-1821
Chris Ellmers on Deptford private shipyards and their relationship to Deptford Dockyard 1790-1869
Duncan Hawkins on The Archaeology of a Dockyard.  Investigations at Deptford 2000-2012
Chris Mazeika and William Richards on The role of post-closure documentation in understanding the history of the dockyard officers' terrace at Deptford
Mark Stevenson on Block and Tackle: raising significance. English Heritage, archaeology and development management

This all costs £40 and you get lunch and you have to have booked by 12th April.  Information and bookings to Ann Coats.  anncoats49@gmail.com.    Their website is www.navaldockyards.org and on Facebook Naval-Dockyards-Society   and Twitter @navaldocksoc

- a lot more to come - its not just Christmas Cards which have been turning up the last week or so

Information wanted on a Wheatstone Bridge

We received the following email from one of our followers:

" I am seeking information about a Wheatstone Bridge set that belonged to my father-in-law’s father who was an electrical engineer for the LNER in the early 1900’s and worked in Hartlepool.  He used for his work and it must be around 90 years old I would have thought.  I see that is made by Siemens Brothers and believe that they were based/had factories in Greenwich and Hartlepool'.

and he attached some pictures - which are shown below.


So  - we got in touch with the experts - with the Siemens Brothers Engineering Society - and here is their reply:

"I have been in touch with some of my colleagues in the Siemens Brothers Engineering Society and have undertaken some research myself. There is plenty of information on internet search engines so I have given below a general summary and have tried not to get too technical.

A Wheatstone Bridge is an electrical circuit used to measure an unknown electrical resistance by balancing two legs of a bridge circuit, one leg of which includes the unknown component. [The bridge is formed of resistors connected in a diamond-shaped pattern] Typical applications were: measuring the resistance of a length of cable. For the LNER this could well be railway signaling cable or for Siemens Brothers, telephone cables.

Curiously the Wheatstone Bridge was not invented by Sir Charles Wheatstone (1802 - 1875), but by Samuel Hunter Christie in 1833, but was improved and popularised by Wheatstone in 1843, when he gave full credit to Christie. The Wheatstone Bridge uses the concept of a difference measurement, which can be extremely accurate. Variations of the Wheatstone Bridge can be used to measure capacitance, inductance and impedance. The significance of measuring the 'unknown' resistance can thus be related to the impact of some physical phenomenon such as force, temperature, pressure etc. In practical terms a 'break' in a cable.

The most common use of the Wheatstone Bridge in day to day telephony and telegraphy was thus the location of cable faults. By determining the resistance of a fault and comparing it with a pre-determined map, it was possible to send repairmen out to the exact location of a fault, accurate to within a few feet.  Brass plugs (as seen in the picture) were used to throw resistance in and out of the circuit until a balance was achieved as indicated by zero deflection and thus zero current flow through the galvanometer mounted in the centre of the instrument, again as seen in the picture..

The Wheatstone Bridge was further developed by Kelvin to form the Kelvin Bridge , the concept being further extended to alternating current measurement by James Clerk Maxwell in 1865.

Various formats of the Wheatstone Bridge were thus developed and manufactured by specialist companies. We do not have any specifics on the particular model that belonged to Mr Kennnedy's father in law's, father. Clearly it was made by Siemens Brothers & Co. Ltd., London, at the main Woolwich Works. It would have been made and in use in the late 19th century and the earlier part of the 20th century for typically resistance measuring and fault finding on cables as described above. The instrument could therefore be about 100 years old. By a strange coincidence Samuel Hunter Christie worked at the Royal Military Academy in Woolwich. Siemens Brothers did have several satellite factories including one in Hartlepool. It is unlikely that the instrument would have been sourced via Hartlepool as we believe this factory came on stream after the 1939/45 war.

A Wheatstone Bridge would of little 'practical' use to todays telephone collector. However in good condition it would form a most attractive part of any collection and could be of interest to a Science Museum [who may also be able to put a value on it] or a Heritage Centre. The Siemens Brothers Engineering Society has donated a great many items to the Greenwich Heritage Centre, which is actually located in Woolwich. If any further information is required please contact me.

 

Brian Middlemiss

On behalf of the Siemens Brothers Engineering Society.

 

 

 

In August this blog reproduced an article by Dr.Robert Carr originally published in Industrial Archaeology News about London Bridge Station. That article achieved the highest number of views of any article this blog has published. Here is his next article from the current issue of the same publication.

A large London railway terminus is to be completely demolished to divert two railway tracks through the site. Known to relatively few people, the Brighton part of London Bridge Station appears doomed. This raises familiar issues concerning the different treatment of architecture and engineering as well as those concerning World Heritage Sites.

(see Industrial Archaeology News 162 pp 8&9

The London and South Coast Railway’s terminus at London Bridge station has long been something of a Cinderella station. The main problem is that relatively few people are familiar with it. Most passengers who use London Bridge only remember the through platforms to the north where conditions can be really dreadful. Redevelopment here is sorely needed. The London Bridge terminus lacks glamour in that the trains only go to relatively humble destinations in the South East. There never was a Golden Arrow or Night Ferry to Paris as at Victoria, or a Cornish Riviera Express to Penzance departing from Paddington.

It is not really clear why it is necessary to demolish the whole of the 1864-7 terminus roof just to re-route two railway lines through it. An entry at the northwest corner facilitated by a beam supported on columns should be within the bounds of present day structural engineering. About a hundred or so years ago this kind of rearrangement was undertaken at railway stations such as Rugby and Crewe and a good example can still be seen at Chester General Station. There may, however, be other reasons not readily apparent but these have not been made clear. One difference is that at London Bridge the station is not at ground level. The whole edifice is supported on substantial brick arches.

However when one considers that, under Nick Derbyshire in 1985-92, Liverpool Street station was rebuilt and extended in a matching Vicwardian style, what would be needed at London Bridge seems modest. City money was involved then and Southwark is relatively impoverished. But attitudes change. About forty- four years ago it was seriously intended to demolish St Pancras station and its listing by Lord Kennet was highly controversial. Many people then considered St Pancras a hideous Victorian monstrosity. At London Bridge we are now having a re-run of the nineteen sixties. The enlightenment of recent years may be coming to an end.

Rather than just separate covers for each island platform as presently proposed, a less unfortunate solution for the station might be a great overall roof, perhaps something like that by Cesar Pelli for the Docklands Light Railway at Canary Wharf. A splendid new roof, say something like the great arch Richard Rogers proposed for the combined King's Cross and St Pancras stations, would really put the London Bridge station on the map and could commensurate in scale with the Shard tower which is intended to be the nucleus for a cluster of tower blocks, as number one Canada Square was for the redevelopment of the Isle of Dogs.

However, objections from the United Nations' cultural organization UNESCO regarding sight lines for World Heritage Sites might prevent further high rise building in the London Bridge area going ahead. Last December a monitoring mission reported that the visual integrity of the Tower of London had been compromised by the building of the Shard tower, the tallest completed building in Europe at 1,016 feet high, and advised that further towers would compound the problem. Similar considerations also apply to redevelopment near Waterloo station which is likely to involve the demolition of Elizabeth Tower, Elizabeth House and some other buildings.

Once granted, World Heritage Site status is not guaranteed in perpetuity and can be removed if unsympathetic redevelopment takes place. In 2004 UNESCO declared the Elbe Valley at Dresden a World Heritage Site. A twelve-mile stretch of landscape, this included the city centre and baroque palaces, churches, opera house, museums. However, after first being placed on list of endangered sites in 2006, the historic area of the city lost its title in June 2009 for the wilful breach of the UNESCO World Heritage Convention. This was due to the construction - the WaldschliiBchenbrucke - a conspicuous composite-steel four-lane motorway bridge across the valley less than two kilometres from the historic city centre.

Dresden is only the second World Heritage Site ever to be removed from the register. UNESCO made clear in 2006 that the bridge would destroy the cultural landscape if building went ahead. Legal moves by Dresden City Council to prevent the bridge from being constructed were unsuccessful.

The WaldschliiBchenbrucke is obtrusive - a massive bowstring-like construction which externally resembles concrete. Could they not have built a low rise bridge similar to some of the nearby Elbe crossings? The river here is not navigable by seagoing ships which need substantial headroom. This really does look like a wilful violation of the UNESCO convention.

All this may mean that in London the continued redevelopment of the London Bridge area would be inhibited and the station itself left in rather a dreadful mess following implementation of the low-rise low-cost scheme presently proposed for it. Surely this was just an interim proposal to cover the period until sufficient funds become available to build an appropriate new station? The simple wavy-roof platform covers presently envisaged are hardly great architecture and certainly not imposing. London Bridge station looks like being further demeaned. It should be borne in mind that curved glass panels are extremely difficult to keep clean. This maintenance problem was soon discovered at Waterloo Eurostar station, opened in November 1994.

Considering now the South Eastern Railway offices these have recently been cleaned so perhaps they will be retained after all. The controversy over the demolition of these offices has served as a red herring, deflecting public attention away from the proposed demolition of the terminus that is relatively hidden away and less well known to the public. The suspicious might suggest a conspiracy but it is all too easy to jump to incorrect conclusions. A crude interpretation in base human terms is generally insufficient to account for the chaotic way in which the world behaves. Such matters are complex and essentially incomprehensible. If something happens there are not necessarily a reason, let alone a human being to blame.

Returning to the issue of the ironwork of the terminus roof. there is now some suggestion that it might be put in store for future re-use. This is an attractive proposition. At least it might be possible to save the longitudinal crescent roof. If this were re-erected at a greater height than at present, the effect could be magnificent. However, at Greenwich the excellent wrought iron roof of the Neptune Hall of 1873-4, a former gymnasium designed by Sir Andrew Clarke RE, was put in store with the intention that it would soon be re-erected. After fifteen years nothing has happened and such things once dismantled and stored have a tendency to get lost, piece by piece, until reuse becomes impossible.

The situation at London Bridge station is fairly typical. The unlisted architecture of the 1897-1900 South Eastern Railway offices has overridden in importance the listed 1864-7 engineering of the railway terminus roof. Once more is it being demonstrated that the architect is more important than the engineer? It should be noted, however, that the architect who worked on the station with the engineer F D Banister was C H Driver (1832-1900). Driver was responsible for many considerable works and was probably the architect for Crossness pumping station, 1859-65. The main buildings there were listed grade I in 1980.

On a sunny day a visit to the LBSCR terminus in the quiet of the afternoon can be recommended. It is easy to appreciate the merits and shortcomings of the building then. Presently, this part of the station might be a little underused but the routing of twin Thameslink tracks through the northern part would rectify this and, if the terminus could ever be redeveloped a la Liverpool Street, a wonderful station worthy of a great new business quarter to rival Broadgate might be achieved.

Dr. Robert Carr.

Industrial Archaeology News. No. 163 Winter 2012. Pp 10-11.
Published Association for Industrial Archaeology www.industrial-archaeology.org

Bomb Sight Project

Readers of this Blog may be interested in the Bomb Sight project that has recently been publicised by the BBC's Web site. Access to the data is via a standard Web page, but is also available by means of an Android App. It's very annoying (to me) and quite unusual, that something like this has been developed for the Android platform, hopefully 'first' as opposed to 'at all', rather than for the iOS iPhone/iPad platform!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20637222

http://www.bombsight.org is currently overloaded!

Any comments on the plotted Greenwich 'hits'?

News from the newsletters

All sorts of things have been arriving in the post over the past week or so:

Greenwich Historical Society are advertising their meetings for next spring:

23rd January - Francis Ward Greenwich Local Quiztory
(need to be in a team of 4-6)

27th February - Peter Guillery speaking on the Royal Naval Dockyards - Deptford and Woolwich

27th March - Anthony Cross. Cloak and Dagger - A Nelsonian Yarn

24th April - Neil Rhind being interviewed by Julian Watson on his eight chosen tracks

all at Blackheath High School, Vanburgh Park - 7.30


and

Woolwich and District Antiquarian Society newsletter - has in it -

A review of the very wonderful Survey of Woolwich - (by Richard Buchanan and already posted here)
Notes about the Napier Lines and the Congreve Lines (military installations)
A note about Shrewsbury House by Richard Buchanan

their future meetings include:
5th January - A Magic Lantern talk on North West Kent
2nd February - talk on the Palace of Westminster by Susan Jenkinson
2nd March - AGM and show and tell
all at Charlton House, 2 pm


and

GLIAS Newsletter
the December edition does not mention Greenwich and Woolwich at all - not a word!!

but they do advertise the following events:
17th January  Animal Power - Muscle Mills
and other unmentioned things on 20th February, 20th March, 17th April, and May 15th which will  be their AGM.  All on at the Robin Brook Centre, St.Bartholomew's Hospital.  6.30
they also note

18th January - New Look Cutty Sark by Jessica Lewis at Enfield Archaeological Society, Jubilee Hall, Parsonage Lane, Enfield. 7.30 £1 for visitors.
25th January - The Burndept Story - Lewisham Local History Soc. Burndept made amplifiers in Deptford and Erith.   Methodist Church, Albion Way, Lewisham,  7.45


and

Greenwich Historical Society have sent us their Journal vol.4 No2.
First of all there is an obituary to the late John Swindell - which we would very much endorse and say how sorry we were to lose him - he was a great friend to all Greenwich historians.

Then an amazing article 'Young Cattermole's Day Out'  this is about a lad who made an excursion down the Thames in 1858.  The article is by Anthony Cross and very much recommended - but what are amazing are Young Cattermole's drawings of what he say - you MUST see them!!  Embarkation at London Bridge (on paddle steamer Swift)   ---  Custom House from the River  -----  Market Porters at Custom House Quay  ----- the Tower of London --- Coal Barge --  Great Eastern on the Stocks at Millwall ----  Riveters at work on the hull of the Great Eastern  ----   Disembarkation at Garden Stairs  ---- Entry to Greenwich Park ---------------- Amazing!!


and

Lewisham History Journal No.20 2012

This will be the subject, I think, of a separate posting, given the importance of an article about William Bourne Lewis.

What do we know about windmills

We have a note from Rob who is 'currently in the process of completing a fairly hefty tome on the > windmills of SE London and NW Kent, concentrating on sites from the old  London border of Kent to the Darent valley.'
He is asking GIHS if we can help with the following

a windmill attached to a water-powered paper mill, described as 'near the East India Docks in Deptford', insured by a gentleman called Josiah Johannott (apparently a papermaker from Switzerland) in > 1751. Mr Johannot was declared bankrupt shortly afterwards and the > mills were advertised for sale in the London Gazette in 1754
 "To be Sold to the highest bidder, pursuant to an Order of the Lord High Chancellor in a Commission of Bankrupt awarded against Josias Johannot, late of Deptford, Paper Maker, on 25 February inst. at the Guildhall, London.
A leasehold estate of which there are ninety years to come from Christmas last, consisting of a water-mill, and Windmill, used for the  making of Paper; a dwelling house, garden and wharf, two small tenements and Yards adjoining to the Mill, the whole containing, in Front next the River Thames, 200 feet or thereabouts, adjoining to Wells's Dock. Also meadow land adjoining, situate at Deptford.   Likewise the Utensils in and about the said Mills for making of Paper."

Rob says he cannot place this mill at all, and it  appears to be unrecognised in historical research. A wind powered paper mill in the UK is very rare, and I have no records for a watermill either; in fact this could be a tide paper mill, again a first. Any thoughts? My guess is that it was somewhere in the  Victualling Yard, but I am baffled.
and

Victualling Yard mills. I have a succession of windmills in the Victualling Yard at the end of the now gone Windmill Lane. The government appear to spend enormous amount of money on these, in order  to supply ships biscuits to the fleet. They seem to be burned down or sold off at some regularity. The last one I have is mentioned in a House of Commons exchange as built in 1826 at the cost of £40,000!!, which is an astonishing amount to spend on a windmill! To compound this, none of the Victualling yard windmills are marked on maps.

and

I am baffled by a lovely watercolour of Deptford Theatre with pub adjoining dated 1840, showing a white smock mill apparently on the other side of the Creek in the corner. All the features of this  watercolour are well drawn and apparently accurate, but I have no windmill recorded in this spot. It looks like it is attached to a  factory, perhaps the soap factory(?), or the waterworks, so perhaps was  used for another function. 
and

A windmill called 'Clayton Mill', marked on Rocques map is still a mystery...

Greenwich Peninsula - what do we know??

 

 

This really smashing picture has been passed to us by someone who would like to know more about it - and can we say that we have no idea who owns it, where it is or how it got to the person who sent it to us - so, sorry,  if it belongs to you - we will remove it if you want, or happy to share any information about the subject matter with you.

 

 

It apparently shows the Greenwich Peninsula's west bank by moonlight - we think soon after 1850.  Any ideas about any of the features shown on it. It seems to be taken from somewhere around Delta Wharf - and to show a boat builders yard, Cowden.  In the distance is Greenwich Hospital and - I am told Our Lady Star of the Sea.  Other buildings appear to be the telegraph cable works of what would have been at that date probably Glass Elliott. 

Disabled History

 



Greenwich Workshops for the Blind, Eastney Street, 1972
Making a Fendoff

Eastside Community Heritage have sent us info about their Disabled History Events in December

Reminisence Session at Dagenham Valence House, 

Launch of Adphabs 'Making Music' Docklands Campus, UEL
and an exhibition 'Working with Disability




We couldn't help remembering the Greenwich Workshops for the Blind  - and are asking them to liaise with us on that.


Greenwich Workshops for the Blind
Burney Street 1972
Making baskets
 

Eastside are also running projects on  Ugandan Asians in London;  St.Clement's Hospital, Bow;  Making Music; Stratford Explorers

Info www.hidden-histories.org.uk/wordpress

or st4eve@ech.org.uk   020 8553 3243

When Greenwich and Woolwich at Work was published the Publisher's editor would not believe that these pictures were taken in the 1970s  - and refused to put that date in the book. 

If the photographer reads this blog perhaps they would verify that date.

Woolwich's big event this week - Launch of the Survey of Woolwich

The launch this week of The Survey of Woolwich was a great success - and the book itself even more so.    Various people are sending their impressions and report about the launch and the book. So - some are given below and some will be added in - first of all - here's the invite:

 ENGLISH HERITAGE invites you to a reception in WOOLWICH TOWN HALL,
in the presence of The Mayor of the Royal Borough of Greenwich, Councillor David Grant  to mark the publication of
Survey of London volume 48: Woolwich
for English Heritage by Yale University Press on behalf of the Paul Mellon Centre for Studies in British Art



So - what have people got to say? - and why is it so important?  First Mayor, David Grant, who opened the event:

 

"The publication of the English Heritage Survey is a very important moment for Woolwich, which is at last showing the signs of development and growth which it has long needed.  The book itself is magnificent and the borough has been fortunate in being given three copies - one for the public library in Woolwich, one for the Heritage Centre and one for the staff library in the Woolwich Centre.  It is a very worthwhile read, even though at £75 a copy it is beyond most people's reach to buy".

and now a contribution from veteran Greenwich historian (and ex-councillor) Darrell Spurgeon:

"They could have chosen Deptford, they could have chosen Greenwich. Instead English Heritage’s Survey of London chose Woolwich for their first venture into South East London. It was an inspired choice, for Woolwich has a fantastic history –military, municipal and manufacturing, retaining a fine ensemble of buildings relating to that history. Most of that history is of course industrial or has industrial associations.

Mary has written about the book launch at the Town Hall on Monday this week, so has Richard Buchanan. I too was lucky to have been invited. It was a great occasion, with good speeches from the Mayor, David Grant, and from senior English Heritage personalities - Simon Thurley, Andrew Saint, and the main author, Peter Guillery.

What a wonderful book! You would of course expect it to be, with over 500 pages, over 400 illustrations, and at a price tag of £75. But it is even better than I had expected!

Darrell Spurgeon

and - next - a much longer piece from our regular contributor Richard Buchanan

 

English Heritage hosted a reception at Woolwich Town Hall on 26^th November 2012 to launch the Woolwich volume of the Survey of London.  The invitation itself was handsome, and featured a detail of an electrolier from the main hall of the Town Hall.

Peter Guillery is stated in the preamble of  the book to be its Editor - a term which in this case includes principal researcher and writer – he was of course at the launch.   Once the company had assembled, Andrew Saint, the General Editor of the Survey of London, opened the proceedings.  He welcomed everyone; and went on to say how they had decided some years ago that it was high time that a Survey was done south of the Thames – Battersea being in mind -  until Peter said Woolwich had a stronger case. 

 

For the last several years Peter Guillery has been a genial face in Woolwich, reading voraciously and talking to anyone with any knowledge of the Parish.  Many of these were present, particularly from the Council, the Heritage Centre, the Woolwich Antiquarian Society and the Royal Artillery.

Councillor David Grant, the Mayor of the Royal Borough of Greenwich, gave a short but heartfelt speech.  Simon Thurley, Chief Executive of the English Heritage then spoke.  The royal connections of Woolwich, as distinct from Greenwich, were paraded.  The Woolwich Survey in draft form, without illustrations, has been on the internet since the spring, so speakers (and many present) had had time to see the text and gave it great praise.

Peter Guillery himself spoke, saying how helpful people had been, and named his principal contributors.

The publishers, Yale University Press, had a table in a corner, and were selling the book (at the wholesale price).  Notwithstanding its presence on the internet, the book, very handsomely produced, could not be resisted and many copies weere bought.

I first read an eleven page article written by Peter Guillery in the Greenwich Historical Society’s Journal Vol.2 No.3 of 2000, about the buildings on Park Vista, Greenwich - and was impressed.  The Woolwich Survey, of 446 pages (with another 70 for references & index), is to the same high standard throughout.

The Survey covers the Parish of Woolwich, which is a roughly triangular area between Woolwich Dockyard, the Arsenal and the western slope of Shooters Hill.  An exception was made to include the historic part of the Arsenal that extends over the parish boundary.  It is an impressive book intended to expound what is known, from as early as can be ascertained, to the present – who built what and when, what difficulties they faced, the social problems, who demolished what, and so on.  Many sources were consulted, though often a single reference at the end of a paragraph will list several relevant documents.  It is well illustrated with photographs and drawings, some specially commissioned.  This is one of the most significant books ever to have been published on Woolwich.

Richard Buchanan

 

More to follow ..........................................

 

 

 

 

Running the River Thames Project

A recent meeting of the Docklands History Group featured the “Running the River Thames Project”.  by Professor Sarah Palmer and Dr Vanessa Taylor, of Greenwich University..

Sarah explained that the project looks at London,and the environmental governance of the River Thames from 1960 to 2011.  This is a two year project, which stated in August 2011 by the Greenwich Maritime Institute financedby the Economic and Social Research Council.

Vanessa’s is working full time on this and her previous projects have been 1. Public policy, stakeholders and the river in the twentieth century and 2. Thames governance oral histories 1960-2010.  She had interviewed 24 people about their experience of Thames governance.

The current project covered the Thames as a whole - the watershed, the tributaries and the basin.  They had to balance the changes arising from uses which included the port and wharves, passenger and freight transport, land drainage, water supply, sewage and waste and water removal, habitats, eco system services, recreation, landscape and property development of all sorts.

The “stakeholders” involved were groups - for instance those with a geographic interest riparian, residential, houseboat, commercial property, agricultural, environmental or archaeological and also single interest groups like anglers, or sailors. 

The project asks who influences and who governs the River?  They looked at organisations like the Port of London Authority, the Environment Agency, Thames Water Authority, local authorities and the Greater London Authority.    As well as this organisations like the government, the European Union, Natural England and so on.

Some aspects of environmental governance had not been looked at before.  Over the period of the project docks had closed, there had been redevelopment and the port operatioon itself had moved down river.  This meant that In effect the governance had moved away from London institutions and into river basin management under private ownership e.g. Thames Water Authority.  Today there is a need to comply with with environmental regulations and an obligation to consult stakeholders.  They were studying how these changes related to the Thames, the impact on London and the implications for today’s governance. 

 

They are thus focusing on:

1. Stakeholders and environmental governance of the port and river 1960 to 1975.
2. Watershed democracy London and Thames Water Authority 1973 to 1989.
3. City, port and “Ecological hinterland” 1964-1992.
4. The Thames, Stakeholders and Democracy 1960 to 2010.

There was now consultation instead of representation.  Has it had influence?  How do stakeholders operate and make their voices heard?

Sarah stressed that as historians they had to remain neutral and take a dispassionate view and they did this by discussion and interviews with stakeholders, campaigning groups and policy makers.  In addition there was a tremendous amount of material providing direct and indirect evidence in the National Archives, although limited by the 30 year disclosure rule, and there was material in local authority archives and with local organisations, and in the Parliamentary archives.  The problem was how to select the material and draw it together.  They would be producing:

1. Academic articles which Vanessa would produce.
2. A guide on their website in three parts, firstly a guide to the database of organisations, secondly a guide to the accessibility of archives and thirdly a tabular guide with links.
3. Talks and presentations to a wide range of audiences
4. A final conference
5. A full report.

Hopefully Greenwich Industrial History can be involved in some of this and also hope that either Sarah or Vanessa can come and talk to us about it.

 

their web site is
 http://www2.gre.ac.uk/about/schools/gmi/research/case-studies/running-the-river-thames

 

 

Gordons and their Deptford Shipyard

 

The latest volume of 'Shipbuilding and Ships on the Thames' includes an excellent article by Chris Ellmers "This Great National Object - the Story of the Paddle Steamer Enterprise'.  This is an intriguing story and very much recommended to be read.  However - in the course of the paper Chris does give some details about the builders of Enterprise - which might be of specific interest to Greenwich historians - remembering that much of the Deptford riverside area was part of Greenwich until relatively recently.

 

So - as far as Enterprise is concerned, Chris says ''Messrs’ Gordon and Co. Deptford’ Gordon and Company are given as the builders'.   He goes on to point out that 'Surprisingly little has been written about Gordon and Company ..... Philip Banbury (in Shipbuilders of the Thames and Medway) says ‘that 'the Enterprise is the only ship known to have been built by Gordon & Co'’, and devotes much of his short discourse on the yard to her story.

Chris also gives some details about the Gordon family and their business, and they turn out to be surprisingly upmarket!

"Between 1820-1826, the principals of the Gordons' businesses were David Gordon and his sons Charles David Gordon (1790-1826) and Michael Francis Gordon (1792-18-60). Towards the end of the period they would have been supported by David Gordon's youngest son; Adam Gordon (1801-1839). ......................It is likely, however, that David Gordon himself was then no longer involved with  any of the  day-to-day activities of the business, having succeeded to the title of Gordonof Abergeldie  in December 1819' . ...................... It would appear that none of the younger Gordons had received any training as shipwrights. Indeed, Charles David Gordon, Michael Francis Gordon and Adam Gordon had all received privileged educations at Harrow School, with Charles David becoming a friend of the young Byron. It is clear that the Gordons' venture into shipbuilding represented a capitalistic investment opportunity - albeit at a time when the fortunes of London shipbuilding were still in a period of post war decline - rather than an outlet for any family training, or technical talents".

Chris continues by discussing the site of the yard - pointing out that many historians have mistakenly located it at Deptford Green  - however he says 'As the directories and Deptford rate books make clear, the Gordons' shipyard was at Grove Street Deptford. This was at the old Dudman's Dock, where major shipbuilding activities had previously been undertaken by William Barnard, William Dudman and Henry Adams, from 1763 until 1813. During the time of Gordons' occupation the yard consisted of the large wet dock that was Dudman's Dock itself, two dry  docks and five slipways. Then one of the largest facilities on the Thames, the yard would have offered maximum flexibility for both shipbuilding and ship repairing. Some idea of what the the yard was able to achieve in busy periods, is indicated by statistics relating to John Dudman’s operation of the yard, during the years 1803-1812. Across this period, the yard – 25 naval ships and 13 merchant ships, repaired 282 ships, and employed between 174 and 340 men.

And in relation to the Deptford Green site: "The Gordon family did have an operation at Deptford Green but it was a metalworking one, focusing on iron founding and anchor making. This was developed in the last quarter of the 18^th century by David Gordon (1751-1831), and his then partners John Biddulph (his brother-in-law) and William Stanley - of Lime Street in the City.

 

View fromm Dudman's Dockyard Deptford 
John Cleveley 1774

And - in summary - "Gordons' Deptford Green works was also a very substantial operation. The various entries in the London directories state that the following trade activities were undertaken there 'millwrights"; 'engineers'; 'machinists'; anchorsmiths'; 'founders'; and 'wholesale ironmongers'. Given the Gordon family's educational and mercantile background, they must have been very dependent on skilled draughtsmen, managers and foremen for the production of both businesses. This skill base certainly helped make it a ship building business of first rank.

Chris ends the paper with a postscript about the yard "fifteen days after the launch of the second Enterprise (in 1838) much of Gordon's Deptford shipyard - including warehouses,. timber house, workshops ... were destroyed in a major fire."  and "the yard eventually closed in 1842"

If you want to read the whole story of Enterprise you will need a copy of Proceedigns of the Fourth Symposium held on 28th February 2009. This is edited by Dr J.R.Owen and obtainable from jr_owen100@hotmail.com

There She Blows! - ad for Whaling Trade Symposium

‘THERE SHE BLOWS!’ – ASPECTS OF THE LONDON WHALING TRADE

DOCKLANDS HISTORY GROUP ANNUAL SYMPOSIUM

THE MUSEUM OF LONDON DOCKLANDS

SATURDAY 23^rd MARCH 2013

Programme

9.45 Museum of London Docklands’ doors open - registration, tea and coffee

          
10.20 Chris Ellmers – Welcome and Opening Remarks
10.25 Dr. Janet West (Scott Polar Research Institute) – Introduction  
10.40 First Session - Chairman, Charles Payton
10.40 Paper 1: Alex Werner (Museum of London) – Revealing London’s Hidden Whaling History: An Appreciation of A. G. E. Jones, Whaling Historian
11.10 Paper 2: Hazel Forsyth (Museum of London) – The ‘Business of Striking the Whale’ The Muscovy Company and Early Whaling
11.40 Paper 3: Chris Ellmers (Maritime Historian) – ‘A Place of Blubber and Oil’: The Greenland Dock and the Whaling Trades
PM    
12.10 Dr. Stuart Frank, Charles Payton and Chris Ellmers – A London Whaling Miscellany

12.45 – 2.00 Lunch – This is not provided by the organisers. Local cafe details provided       

2.00 Second Session - Chairman, Chris Ellmers
2:00 Paper 4: Beatrice Behlen (Museum of London)  ‘In Whalebone Bondage Gall the Slender            Waist’: Fashionable Uses of Baleen
2.30 Paper 5: Dr. Stuart Frank (New Bedford Whaling Museum) – ‘Curiously Carved’: Scrimshaw and the South Sea Whale Fishery
3.30-4.00 Coffee/tea
4.00 Third Session – Chairman, Chris Ellmers
4.00 Paper 6: Charles Payton (Whaling Historian) – The Worlds of the Enderby Family
4.30 Paper 7: Jean-Thierry Du Pasquier (Whaling Historian) – The Enderbys and the Dobrée           Whaling Venture
4.50 Paper 8: Dr. Richard Sabin (Natural History Museum) – The Bay Wharf Whale and Early Thames Strandings
5.20 Edward Sargent, Chairman of the Docklands History Group - Concluding Remarks
5.30 Closure

Booking will be via the Docklands History Group website: www.docklandshistorygroup.org.uk. Bookings will open in early December.

LONDON WHALING TRADE SYMPOSIUM - EVENING DINNER

A Whaling Garland

With Music and Words Performed and Presented by Dr. Stuart Frank, Charles Payton and Chris Ellmers
This event is planned to take place in the Museum restaurant, Rum & Sugar, subject to fifty delegate and other bookings being made by mid-February 2013

London Shipbuilding Symposium Papers - an advert

        FOURTH SYMPOSIUM ON “SHIPBUILDING AND SHIPS ON THE THAMES”

The Proceedings of the above which was held in February 2009 at the Museum of London Docklands is now available. It is regretted that there has been a delay in publication due to a change in the editorship earlier this year. The volume is an A4 size, softback publication similar to those produced for the meetings held in 2003 and 2006. It is a limited run publication that will not be reprinted or sold elsewhere. The ten papers presented at the 2009 meeting were as follows:

1. Dr Damian Goodburn

Investigating Fragments of a Large Oared Ship, or Galley, of the late 13^th Century excavated from the London Waterfront. 18 pp., 7 illus.

2. Dr Janet Macdonald                                                                                                        

British Patents of Interest to Maritime Historians filed in London between 1780 and 1820, 12 pp., 8 illus.

3. Dr Cori Convertito-Farrar and Ken Cozens                                                                    

The Operations of the Trinity House Ballast Office in the Late Eighteenth Century, 15 pp., 3 Tables, 2 Fig., 5 illus.

4. Chris  Ellmers                                                                                                                                                            

‘This Great National Object’ - the Story of the Paddle Steamer Enterprize.  23 pp., 1 Table, 8 illus.                   
 5. Professor Andrew Lambert                                                                                                                              
Woolwich Dockyard and the Early Steam Navy, 1815-1852, 15 pp., 2 Tables, 2 illus.                                           

6. Dr Carlos Alfaro Zaforteza                                                                                                                                   

Sea Power and Technology Transfer: The Spanish Navy and the Thames Shipyards, 1844-1850, 13 pp., 4 Tables, 3 illus.                                                                                                        

7. Alexis Haslam and Duncan Hawkins with contributions by Christopher Mayo, Denise Mulligan and Andrew Skelton

Recent archaeological investigations at The Forge, Millwall and Payne’s and Borthwick Wharves, Deptford, 14 pp., 13 illus.                                                                                          

8. Dr Roy Fenton                                                                                                                                                          

London Tramps and London Colliers. 8 pp., 3 Tables, 2 Fig.                                                                               

9. Professor Ian Buxton                                                                                                                                            

The Output of Thames-side Yards from 1850 to 1914. 8 pp., 1 Table, 7 Fig., 3 illus.                                                       

10. Rif Winfield and Stuart Rankin                                                                                                                        

John I. Thornycroft & Co. - the Chiswick Years.  20 pp., 2 Tables, 12 illus. 

The cost per copy is £12.50, which includes £2.50 p&p for mailing to UK addresses.  To purchase a copy contact me, as below, with your mailing address and you can pay on receipt.  

The proceedings for the 4^th Symposium are being published and distributed on a non-profit making basis with any surplus funds after paying expenses being donated to the “Help for Heroes” charity.  The proceedings for the 5th symposium held in February 2012 are being edited by Chris Ellmers with the assistance of Jenny Collett, both of the Docklands History Group, and they will be distributed by that Group, probably early in 2013.

Dr Roger Owen     email: jr_owen100@hotmail.com      tel. no. 0208 777 7103

                                                                                                                 

Blackheath Caverns

Ever since last spring we have been meaning feature an article in the April edition of that wonderful publication ‘Subterrania’ – the article is  ‘Chalk Mining near Blackheath Hill, Southeast London. Including Jack Cade's Cavern’ by Anthony Durham

Ostensibly it is yet another account of the caverns known to lie under Blackheath Hill but the author does raise some interesting points and tries to examine the subject holistically.  However, to begin at the beginning – he says ‘ten years ago I had very little idea what lies under the ground near my home. But that all changed on 7 April  2002, when the A2 main road through Greenwich  collapsed into a big hole halfway up Blackheath Hill’.  Having opened up his interest he began to look further  and discovered more.

He started offering guided tours of where the holes were but met with problems because of his unqualified status.  He also contacted the authors of a local blog about Underground Greenwich and says they helped him.  He says he read Harry Pearman's important work in Vol 6 of the Chelsea Speleological Society – but doesn’t indicate that he has ever  spoken to Harry, which is a real pity (Harry has published a more recent article on the caverns in Vol.44).

Returning to the 2002 A2 collapse he says ‘Transport for London and  Thames Water were essentially gifted a get-out-of-jail- free card by a plausible story that the lime burners of three hundred years ago were a bunch of cowboys who repeatedly caused trouble to the road managers of that time’- I hope that isn’t referring to my rather shoved together talks on it – I am certain I never mentioned the word ‘cowboys’ , although I might have my doubts about the level of care and honesty exhibited by 17^th quarry workers – although Anthony Durham is ’inclined to stand up for those old lime burners near Greenwich, whose engineering and managerial skills, and respect for the  local community’ should not be under-estimated.

He gives the much quoted note about the activities of the Steers family  ‘In 1677 William Steers, Limebumer, was fined £40 for "not filling up, supporting and making good, safe, and  secure the King's Highway there against his Lime Kilns leading from Deptford to Blackheath, which said highway he hath undermined by digging, taking and carrying from  thence great quantities of chalk’ and so on. He pictures the Steers family ‘earning their living for generations on a patch of hillside that nobody much cared about, selling lime for rich people to build houses’

Returning to the 2002 collapse he discussed the spring line on Blackheath and the consultants' report paid for by Transport for London which explained that ‘most subsidence events are caused by water transporting soil particles underground and opening up ever-bigger voids, which finally collapse.’  But then he says ‘Unfortunately the report did a rotten job on the specific conditions of Blackheath Hill’ and adds that ‘little is known in detail about mining techniques used around Blackheath, even as late as the 1800s’.  he says ‘While digging into a hillside without modem machinery, miners will tend to create a vertical cliff or quarry workface with a horizontal area in front that is partly the floor of the digging and partly the top of a spoil heap’ and that ‘mining tended to transform hillsides’ . He then looks at the area around the hill and the landscape of cliffs and craters  - he is quite right, go out and look at it!  He asks ‘ how far those steps are man-made’

With reference to ‘Jack Cade's Cavern’  he discusses its exact position  and how it might be located by the casual passer by – but asks not to ‘pester (residents) in search of their underground cavity.’

As he points out the Cavern ‘has led an eventful life over the centuries, having been lost, found, lost, found,  and lost’ – and gives a brief history, including the inspection of it as a potential second world war air raid shelter .... ‘They found it exactly as their Victorian forebears had left it: graffiti, old bottles and all.’

He goes on to discuss some of the Blackheath lime burners and has unearthed some interesting  material from the Morden College archives. Has found other Steers – including a Liverpudlian ‘England’s first major civil engineer’ leading him to speculate ‘that Blackheath Hill was the real  nursery of British Engineering’. It’s easy for me to say ‘ of course it was’ – but Penn’s and their followers/trainees  were really mechanical engineers –and  I am not sure where we fit Perkins and his steam guns tests into this

He says, rightly, ‘Blackheath Hill is a whole landscape of industrial archaeology’  - and it is so well hidden by modern buildings and the traffic. 

Read the article – and I would like to get Anthony Durham along to talk to GIHS sometime

Subterranean Britannica.  www.subbrit.org.uk
April 2012 issue 29 Edited by Nick Catford editor@subbrit.org.uk