What do we know about windmills

We have a note from Rob who is 'currently in the process of completing a fairly hefty tome on the > windmills of SE London and NW Kent, concentrating on sites from the old  London border of Kent to the Darent valley.'
He is asking GIHS if we can help with the following

a windmill attached to a water-powered paper mill, described as 'near the East India Docks in Deptford', insured by a gentleman called Josiah Johannott (apparently a papermaker from Switzerland) in > 1751. Mr Johannot was declared bankrupt shortly afterwards and the > mills were advertised for sale in the London Gazette in 1754
 "To be Sold to the highest bidder, pursuant to an Order of the Lord High Chancellor in a Commission of Bankrupt awarded against Josias Johannot, late of Deptford, Paper Maker, on 25 February inst. at the Guildhall, London.
A leasehold estate of which there are ninety years to come from Christmas last, consisting of a water-mill, and Windmill, used for the  making of Paper; a dwelling house, garden and wharf, two small tenements and Yards adjoining to the Mill, the whole containing, in Front next the River Thames, 200 feet or thereabouts, adjoining to Wells's Dock. Also meadow land adjoining, situate at Deptford.   Likewise the Utensils in and about the said Mills for making of Paper."

Rob says he cannot place this mill at all, and it  appears to be unrecognised in historical research. A wind powered paper mill in the UK is very rare, and I have no records for a watermill either; in fact this could be a tide paper mill, again a first. Any thoughts? My guess is that it was somewhere in the  Victualling Yard, but I am baffled.
and

Victualling Yard mills. I have a succession of windmills in the Victualling Yard at the end of the now gone Windmill Lane. The government appear to spend enormous amount of money on these, in order  to supply ships biscuits to the fleet. They seem to be burned down or sold off at some regularity. The last one I have is mentioned in a House of Commons exchange as built in 1826 at the cost of £40,000!!, which is an astonishing amount to spend on a windmill! To compound this, none of the Victualling yard windmills are marked on maps.

and

I am baffled by a lovely watercolour of Deptford Theatre with pub adjoining dated 1840, showing a white smock mill apparently on the other side of the Creek in the corner. All the features of this  watercolour are well drawn and apparently accurate, but I have no windmill recorded in this spot. It looks like it is attached to a  factory, perhaps the soap factory(?), or the waterworks, so perhaps was  used for another function. 
and

A windmill called 'Clayton Mill', marked on Rocques map is still a mystery...

Greenwich Peninsula - what do we know??

 

 

This really smashing picture has been passed to us by someone who would like to know more about it - and can we say that we have no idea who owns it, where it is or how it got to the person who sent it to us - so, sorry,  if it belongs to you - we will remove it if you want, or happy to share any information about the subject matter with you.

 

 

It apparently shows the Greenwich Peninsula's west bank by moonlight - we think soon after 1850.  Any ideas about any of the features shown on it. It seems to be taken from somewhere around Delta Wharf - and to show a boat builders yard, Cowden.  In the distance is Greenwich Hospital and - I am told Our Lady Star of the Sea.  Other buildings appear to be the telegraph cable works of what would have been at that date probably Glass Elliott. 

Disabled History

 



Greenwich Workshops for the Blind, Eastney Street, 1972
Making a Fendoff

Eastside Community Heritage have sent us info about their Disabled History Events in December

Reminisence Session at Dagenham Valence House, 

Launch of Adphabs 'Making Music' Docklands Campus, UEL
and an exhibition 'Working with Disability




We couldn't help remembering the Greenwich Workshops for the Blind  - and are asking them to liaise with us on that.


Greenwich Workshops for the Blind
Burney Street 1972
Making baskets
 

Eastside are also running projects on  Ugandan Asians in London;  St.Clement's Hospital, Bow;  Making Music; Stratford Explorers

Info www.hidden-histories.org.uk/wordpress

or st4eve@ech.org.uk   020 8553 3243

When Greenwich and Woolwich at Work was published the Publisher's editor would not believe that these pictures were taken in the 1970s  - and refused to put that date in the book. 

If the photographer reads this blog perhaps they would verify that date.

Woolwich's big event this week - Launch of the Survey of Woolwich

The launch this week of The Survey of Woolwich was a great success - and the book itself even more so.    Various people are sending their impressions and report about the launch and the book. So - some are given below and some will be added in - first of all - here's the invite:

 ENGLISH HERITAGE invites you to a reception in WOOLWICH TOWN HALL,
in the presence of The Mayor of the Royal Borough of Greenwich, Councillor David Grant  to mark the publication of
Survey of London volume 48: Woolwich
for English Heritage by Yale University Press on behalf of the Paul Mellon Centre for Studies in British Art



So - what have people got to say? - and why is it so important?  First Mayor, David Grant, who opened the event:

 

"The publication of the English Heritage Survey is a very important moment for Woolwich, which is at last showing the signs of development and growth which it has long needed.  The book itself is magnificent and the borough has been fortunate in being given three copies - one for the public library in Woolwich, one for the Heritage Centre and one for the staff library in the Woolwich Centre.  It is a very worthwhile read, even though at £75 a copy it is beyond most people's reach to buy".

and now a contribution from veteran Greenwich historian (and ex-councillor) Darrell Spurgeon:

"They could have chosen Deptford, they could have chosen Greenwich. Instead English Heritage’s Survey of London chose Woolwich for their first venture into South East London. It was an inspired choice, for Woolwich has a fantastic history –military, municipal and manufacturing, retaining a fine ensemble of buildings relating to that history. Most of that history is of course industrial or has industrial associations.

Mary has written about the book launch at the Town Hall on Monday this week, so has Richard Buchanan. I too was lucky to have been invited. It was a great occasion, with good speeches from the Mayor, David Grant, and from senior English Heritage personalities - Simon Thurley, Andrew Saint, and the main author, Peter Guillery.

What a wonderful book! You would of course expect it to be, with over 500 pages, over 400 illustrations, and at a price tag of £75. But it is even better than I had expected!

Darrell Spurgeon

and - next - a much longer piece from our regular contributor Richard Buchanan

 

English Heritage hosted a reception at Woolwich Town Hall on 26^th November 2012 to launch the Woolwich volume of the Survey of London.  The invitation itself was handsome, and featured a detail of an electrolier from the main hall of the Town Hall.

Peter Guillery is stated in the preamble of  the book to be its Editor - a term which in this case includes principal researcher and writer – he was of course at the launch.   Once the company had assembled, Andrew Saint, the General Editor of the Survey of London, opened the proceedings.  He welcomed everyone; and went on to say how they had decided some years ago that it was high time that a Survey was done south of the Thames – Battersea being in mind -  until Peter said Woolwich had a stronger case. 

 

For the last several years Peter Guillery has been a genial face in Woolwich, reading voraciously and talking to anyone with any knowledge of the Parish.  Many of these were present, particularly from the Council, the Heritage Centre, the Woolwich Antiquarian Society and the Royal Artillery.

Councillor David Grant, the Mayor of the Royal Borough of Greenwich, gave a short but heartfelt speech.  Simon Thurley, Chief Executive of the English Heritage then spoke.  The royal connections of Woolwich, as distinct from Greenwich, were paraded.  The Woolwich Survey in draft form, without illustrations, has been on the internet since the spring, so speakers (and many present) had had time to see the text and gave it great praise.

Peter Guillery himself spoke, saying how helpful people had been, and named his principal contributors.

The publishers, Yale University Press, had a table in a corner, and were selling the book (at the wholesale price).  Notwithstanding its presence on the internet, the book, very handsomely produced, could not be resisted and many copies weere bought.

I first read an eleven page article written by Peter Guillery in the Greenwich Historical Society’s Journal Vol.2 No.3 of 2000, about the buildings on Park Vista, Greenwich - and was impressed.  The Woolwich Survey, of 446 pages (with another 70 for references & index), is to the same high standard throughout.

The Survey covers the Parish of Woolwich, which is a roughly triangular area between Woolwich Dockyard, the Arsenal and the western slope of Shooters Hill.  An exception was made to include the historic part of the Arsenal that extends over the parish boundary.  It is an impressive book intended to expound what is known, from as early as can be ascertained, to the present – who built what and when, what difficulties they faced, the social problems, who demolished what, and so on.  Many sources were consulted, though often a single reference at the end of a paragraph will list several relevant documents.  It is well illustrated with photographs and drawings, some specially commissioned.  This is one of the most significant books ever to have been published on Woolwich.

Richard Buchanan

 

More to follow ..........................................

 

 

 

 

Running the River Thames Project

A recent meeting of the Docklands History Group featured the “Running the River Thames Project”.  by Professor Sarah Palmer and Dr Vanessa Taylor, of Greenwich University..

Sarah explained that the project looks at London,and the environmental governance of the River Thames from 1960 to 2011.  This is a two year project, which stated in August 2011 by the Greenwich Maritime Institute financedby the Economic and Social Research Council.

Vanessa’s is working full time on this and her previous projects have been 1. Public policy, stakeholders and the river in the twentieth century and 2. Thames governance oral histories 1960-2010.  She had interviewed 24 people about their experience of Thames governance.

The current project covered the Thames as a whole - the watershed, the tributaries and the basin.  They had to balance the changes arising from uses which included the port and wharves, passenger and freight transport, land drainage, water supply, sewage and waste and water removal, habitats, eco system services, recreation, landscape and property development of all sorts.

The “stakeholders” involved were groups - for instance those with a geographic interest riparian, residential, houseboat, commercial property, agricultural, environmental or archaeological and also single interest groups like anglers, or sailors. 

The project asks who influences and who governs the River?  They looked at organisations like the Port of London Authority, the Environment Agency, Thames Water Authority, local authorities and the Greater London Authority.    As well as this organisations like the government, the European Union, Natural England and so on.

Some aspects of environmental governance had not been looked at before.  Over the period of the project docks had closed, there had been redevelopment and the port operatioon itself had moved down river.  This meant that In effect the governance had moved away from London institutions and into river basin management under private ownership e.g. Thames Water Authority.  Today there is a need to comply with with environmental regulations and an obligation to consult stakeholders.  They were studying how these changes related to the Thames, the impact on London and the implications for today’s governance. 

 

They are thus focusing on:

1. Stakeholders and environmental governance of the port and river 1960 to 1975.
2. Watershed democracy London and Thames Water Authority 1973 to 1989.
3. City, port and “Ecological hinterland” 1964-1992.
4. The Thames, Stakeholders and Democracy 1960 to 2010.

There was now consultation instead of representation.  Has it had influence?  How do stakeholders operate and make their voices heard?

Sarah stressed that as historians they had to remain neutral and take a dispassionate view and they did this by discussion and interviews with stakeholders, campaigning groups and policy makers.  In addition there was a tremendous amount of material providing direct and indirect evidence in the National Archives, although limited by the 30 year disclosure rule, and there was material in local authority archives and with local organisations, and in the Parliamentary archives.  The problem was how to select the material and draw it together.  They would be producing:

1. Academic articles which Vanessa would produce.
2. A guide on their website in three parts, firstly a guide to the database of organisations, secondly a guide to the accessibility of archives and thirdly a tabular guide with links.
3. Talks and presentations to a wide range of audiences
4. A final conference
5. A full report.

Hopefully Greenwich Industrial History can be involved in some of this and also hope that either Sarah or Vanessa can come and talk to us about it.

 

their web site is
 http://www2.gre.ac.uk/about/schools/gmi/research/case-studies/running-the-river-thames

 

 

Gordons and their Deptford Shipyard

 

The latest volume of 'Shipbuilding and Ships on the Thames' includes an excellent article by Chris Ellmers "This Great National Object - the Story of the Paddle Steamer Enterprise'.  This is an intriguing story and very much recommended to be read.  However - in the course of the paper Chris does give some details about the builders of Enterprise - which might be of specific interest to Greenwich historians - remembering that much of the Deptford riverside area was part of Greenwich until relatively recently.

 

So - as far as Enterprise is concerned, Chris says ''Messrs’ Gordon and Co. Deptford’ Gordon and Company are given as the builders'.   He goes on to point out that 'Surprisingly little has been written about Gordon and Company ..... Philip Banbury (in Shipbuilders of the Thames and Medway) says ‘that 'the Enterprise is the only ship known to have been built by Gordon & Co'’, and devotes much of his short discourse on the yard to her story.

Chris also gives some details about the Gordon family and their business, and they turn out to be surprisingly upmarket!

"Between 1820-1826, the principals of the Gordons' businesses were David Gordon and his sons Charles David Gordon (1790-1826) and Michael Francis Gordon (1792-18-60). Towards the end of the period they would have been supported by David Gordon's youngest son; Adam Gordon (1801-1839). ......................It is likely, however, that David Gordon himself was then no longer involved with  any of the  day-to-day activities of the business, having succeeded to the title of Gordonof Abergeldie  in December 1819' . ...................... It would appear that none of the younger Gordons had received any training as shipwrights. Indeed, Charles David Gordon, Michael Francis Gordon and Adam Gordon had all received privileged educations at Harrow School, with Charles David becoming a friend of the young Byron. It is clear that the Gordons' venture into shipbuilding represented a capitalistic investment opportunity - albeit at a time when the fortunes of London shipbuilding were still in a period of post war decline - rather than an outlet for any family training, or technical talents".

Chris continues by discussing the site of the yard - pointing out that many historians have mistakenly located it at Deptford Green  - however he says 'As the directories and Deptford rate books make clear, the Gordons' shipyard was at Grove Street Deptford. This was at the old Dudman's Dock, where major shipbuilding activities had previously been undertaken by William Barnard, William Dudman and Henry Adams, from 1763 until 1813. During the time of Gordons' occupation the yard consisted of the large wet dock that was Dudman's Dock itself, two dry  docks and five slipways. Then one of the largest facilities on the Thames, the yard would have offered maximum flexibility for both shipbuilding and ship repairing. Some idea of what the the yard was able to achieve in busy periods, is indicated by statistics relating to John Dudman’s operation of the yard, during the years 1803-1812. Across this period, the yard – 25 naval ships and 13 merchant ships, repaired 282 ships, and employed between 174 and 340 men.

And in relation to the Deptford Green site: "The Gordon family did have an operation at Deptford Green but it was a metalworking one, focusing on iron founding and anchor making. This was developed in the last quarter of the 18^th century by David Gordon (1751-1831), and his then partners John Biddulph (his brother-in-law) and William Stanley - of Lime Street in the City.

 

View fromm Dudman's Dockyard Deptford 
John Cleveley 1774

And - in summary - "Gordons' Deptford Green works was also a very substantial operation. The various entries in the London directories state that the following trade activities were undertaken there 'millwrights"; 'engineers'; 'machinists'; anchorsmiths'; 'founders'; and 'wholesale ironmongers'. Given the Gordon family's educational and mercantile background, they must have been very dependent on skilled draughtsmen, managers and foremen for the production of both businesses. This skill base certainly helped make it a ship building business of first rank.

Chris ends the paper with a postscript about the yard "fifteen days after the launch of the second Enterprise (in 1838) much of Gordon's Deptford shipyard - including warehouses,. timber house, workshops ... were destroyed in a major fire."  and "the yard eventually closed in 1842"

If you want to read the whole story of Enterprise you will need a copy of Proceedigns of the Fourth Symposium held on 28th February 2009. This is edited by Dr J.R.Owen and obtainable from jr_owen100@hotmail.com

There She Blows! - ad for Whaling Trade Symposium

‘THERE SHE BLOWS!’ – ASPECTS OF THE LONDON WHALING TRADE

DOCKLANDS HISTORY GROUP ANNUAL SYMPOSIUM

THE MUSEUM OF LONDON DOCKLANDS

SATURDAY 23^rd MARCH 2013

Programme

9.45 Museum of London Docklands’ doors open - registration, tea and coffee

          
10.20 Chris Ellmers – Welcome and Opening Remarks
10.25 Dr. Janet West (Scott Polar Research Institute) – Introduction  
10.40 First Session - Chairman, Charles Payton
10.40 Paper 1: Alex Werner (Museum of London) – Revealing London’s Hidden Whaling History: An Appreciation of A. G. E. Jones, Whaling Historian
11.10 Paper 2: Hazel Forsyth (Museum of London) – The ‘Business of Striking the Whale’ The Muscovy Company and Early Whaling
11.40 Paper 3: Chris Ellmers (Maritime Historian) – ‘A Place of Blubber and Oil’: The Greenland Dock and the Whaling Trades
PM    
12.10 Dr. Stuart Frank, Charles Payton and Chris Ellmers – A London Whaling Miscellany

12.45 – 2.00 Lunch – This is not provided by the organisers. Local cafe details provided       

2.00 Second Session - Chairman, Chris Ellmers
2:00 Paper 4: Beatrice Behlen (Museum of London)  ‘In Whalebone Bondage Gall the Slender            Waist’: Fashionable Uses of Baleen
2.30 Paper 5: Dr. Stuart Frank (New Bedford Whaling Museum) – ‘Curiously Carved’: Scrimshaw and the South Sea Whale Fishery
3.30-4.00 Coffee/tea
4.00 Third Session – Chairman, Chris Ellmers
4.00 Paper 6: Charles Payton (Whaling Historian) – The Worlds of the Enderby Family
4.30 Paper 7: Jean-Thierry Du Pasquier (Whaling Historian) – The Enderbys and the Dobrée           Whaling Venture
4.50 Paper 8: Dr. Richard Sabin (Natural History Museum) – The Bay Wharf Whale and Early Thames Strandings
5.20 Edward Sargent, Chairman of the Docklands History Group - Concluding Remarks
5.30 Closure

Booking will be via the Docklands History Group website: www.docklandshistorygroup.org.uk. Bookings will open in early December.

LONDON WHALING TRADE SYMPOSIUM - EVENING DINNER

A Whaling Garland

With Music and Words Performed and Presented by Dr. Stuart Frank, Charles Payton and Chris Ellmers
This event is planned to take place in the Museum restaurant, Rum & Sugar, subject to fifty delegate and other bookings being made by mid-February 2013